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Applying Pro-Vaccine Logic to Car Seats

admin June 13, 2014

 

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**Note: I’m well aware the original article was satire.  I thought it was poorly done and used a ridiculous comparison to make a point.  I’m responding to it not because I think it was serious — really, like I could believe someone is recommending against car seats?! — but because a lot of people do think that vaccines are kind of like car seats, i.e. “prevention” and may be swayed by the original nonsense.  And by the way, if you’re commenting just to tell me that I’m stupid, I missed the point, I’m selfish, or you are otherwise rude or condescending, I’m not publishing it.  My blog, my rules.**

I didn’t even want to click.

There’s a new vaccine propaganda piece circulating, comparing getting your children vaccines with making your children use car seats.  If you’ve been around here before, you might know I’m not a fan of the first, but I’m firmly in favor of the second.  

The post was illogical at best.  Everyone who’s done any serious research into vaccination could see that immediately.  Unfortunately, though, it was put on a very popular website and a lot of parents who haven’t looked into vaccines a whole lot might be swayed by this…unfortunate…piece.  

So, I sighed and clicked anyway.

Let’s just go ahead and break this down, bit by bit.

Shaming is NOT the Way to Get Your Point Across

Most articles that push vaccination are pretty shame-heavy.  As in, “If you don’t vaccinate, you don’t really love your child.”  or “If you don’t vaccinate, you don’t care about your child’s safety/protection.”  or even “You’re a detriment to society at large if you don’t vaccinate.”  Basically, it’s all anger and fear.

I don’t like that.

Vaccines are a medical procedure.  They are something that you should research carefully, discuss with a medical professional you trust, and decide about on an individual basis.  You may decide to fully vaccinate.  You may decide to go with selective or delayed vaccination.  You may decide not to vaccinate at all.  That’s your business, and it should stay your business.  This fear-based nonsense has no place in this discussion.

It keeps popping up, though, so I keep addressing it.

By the way, if you believe that vaccines should stay a family’s personal choice, you’ll want to check out this post.  Help us speak out for parental rights.

Are Vaccines Like Car Seats?

No.

Let’s just start with that.  Vaccines are nothing at all like car seats.  When you put your child in a car seat and use it properly, there is no risk to them over 99% of the time (assuming you don’t get into an accident).  If you do get into an accident, then there is a tiny risk of injury, but the chances of the car seat protecting your child are far, far greater than any risk of injury.  Unless you don’t use the seat correctly, in which case malfunction and injury risk goes up, but that’s not because of the car seat, that’s because of user error.  (Learn to use your car seats properly.  But that’s not the point of this post.)  There is also no benefit to getting into a car accident without a car seat.  There is no benefit to being injured or killed in a car crash — and death is pretty darn likely if your child is under 5 and not strapped in at all.  Car crashes, in fact, are the #1 cause of death in children 5 and under.

In contrast, every single time you inject a vaccine, there is a risk of injury.  Every single vaccine carries a list of potentially dangerous ingredients.  For some children, the potential risk from a vaccine far, far outweighs any potential benefit.  For others the risk-benefit analysis isn’t as clear.  But there is always a risk.  A vaccine is simply nothing like a benign car seat.  That was mistake #1 in this post.

Now let’s look at the actual claims in this article, piece by piece….

… something like 99.7% of babies diagnosed with cerebral palsy had been brought home from the hospital in a car seat.

This is the first completely illogical statement.  Cerebral palsy is a birth injury.  It would be diagnosed before a baby ever got into a car or car seat.  If the condition occurs before the correlated event, then, well, it isn’t correlated at all!  Unlike vaccine injury, which occurs after vaccination….

“How could a baby be safer anywhere other than in its mother’s arms?”

Outside of car, this is usually true.  In a car, it’s absolutely false and everyone knows it (or should).  An infant’s weight is multiplied times the speed at which the car is moving.  A 10-lb. baby in a 30 MPH crash is a 300-lb. weight and the mother could not hold onto it.  This is basic physics.  Comparing this to vaccination is…crazy.

“Less preposterous than kickbacks from vaccine manufacturers. Far more money in car seats.”

Doctors do not get kickbacks from car seats.  They do get kickbacks from vaccine manufacturers.  What’s more, they get reimbursed more from insurance companies if their patients are fully vaccinated.  It’s why some of the doctors in my area who used to be okay with a parent’s choice are now pressuring parents to vaccinate.  They aren’t getting reimbursed for visits if their patients are vaccinated.

“They may not be automotive engineers, but their parental gut feelings are good enough.”

It does not take an automotive engineer to examine the car seat research, watch the crash test videos, and realize how much safer car seats are for children.  In fact, it’s blatantly, clearly obvious.  Vaccine science, on the other hand, is more complex, but parents can still make sense of it.  It doesn’t take an expert in either case.  This is deliberately telling parents they’re too stupid to make an accurate decision because they are “just” parents and they are only going on their “guts” — not the evidence they can see for themselves, which they’re plenty smart enough to understand.

“Parents are carefully steered to “research” that hypes the dangers of CP.”

This is just offensive.  There are actual risk factors that can increase the likelihood of CP (and it’s not car seat use) and parents should be aware of the information!  The same goes for vaccines.  Doctors aren’t sharing the actual risks.  They aren’t discussing the situation honestly and openly with their patients or patients’ parents.  Parents have no choice but to go out on their own, seeking information.

“Do a large double-blind trial: Randomly assign some babies to car seats and some to be held in mom’s arms and see how many in each group develop CP, they cry. It will take nothing less to convince them.”

…and exactly why can’t we do this study with vaccines?  Is it because they are so clearly amazing that to withhold them would be unethical?  Oh yes, that is the logic they use!  If they are so determined to prove vaccines are safe and have nothing to do with autism or other developmental disorders, why don’t they just do the study already?  It’s their “gold standard,” after all.

“There is a small uptick in infant fatalities that steadily grows as more and more people refuse to use car seats, but not many people take notice.”

Despite that, yes, more parents are refusing vaccines, and more people are catching these illnesses, death rates are not higher!  Nobody has died of measles in more than a decade, despite thousands of cases.  Very, very few have died of pertussis (5 – 20 per year).  In contrast, much greater numbers are dying or being permanently injured by vaccines.  Nobody wants to talk about that, though.  That is perfectly acceptable.  (The total number of deaths from vaccines isn’t high compared to, say, deaths from car accidents.  But it’s a good 4 – 5x higher than death from diseases we vaccinate for.)

Basically, this post starts with an absolutely ridiculous premise (that CP is somehow related to car seat use, even though first car seat use occurs after a CP diagnosis, not before) and then goes on to make logical fallacy after logical fallacy, with a good dose of shame and anger thrown in for good measure.

You just can’t take stuff like this seriously.

Get Vaccine Information From Good Sources

I think it goes without saying, but I’ll say it anyway: don’t get your vaccine information from poor sources such as this one.

Instead, look for actual published studies.  Look for factual books written by doctors.  Look at data from the CDC and the WHO.  Those are valid sources of information.  This sort of drivel, is not.

If it’s presented as a way of mocking parents who disagree, don’t even waste your time.

If it contains actual facts and maintains a respectful and balanced tone, at least give it a read.  You can choose to discount it if you want.  But please, look for real sources.  Not this shame-anger nonsense.

What did you think of this ridiculous “pro-vaccine logic” analogy?

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40 Comments

  1. First, I would like to say that I totally agree with you about protecting parental rights and about making informed decisions when it comes to vaccines and all other medical procedures. However, I feel that your argument here is weakened with incorrect information. Cerebral Palsy can occur from injury during the first several years of a child’s life, not just birth, from falls, near drowning, abuse, and, yes, car accidents.

    Reply

    • Thanks for that, Courtney.

      Of course, CP isn’t caused by proper car seat use and often occurs before a child is ever put into a car. There’s no clear relationship with car seats. (I’m sure that was the author’s point, to hook two unrelated things.) Still pretty silly.

      Reply

  2. Had a friend post the article you are critiquing (she is pro vaccine and a nurse and a mother). I am more or less on the other side then she is in how trusting I am of vaccines. I don’t think this article was serious at all about CP and car seats and that was their point. That parents who don’t vaccinate decide based off of some super crazy non related thing that is not science (like following a celebrity or something like that). I agree it does not help with the discussion but encourages people to be divided rather then united in making sure everything is as safe for kids as possible. Thanks for your undoing (but tiring, I’m sure) effort to keep people informed and help point them to actual science then silly analogies.

    Reply

  3. […] part of this. Comparing vaccines to car seats? Really? You’ve got to be fucking kidding me. This article sums up a lot of good points regarding to the first article. I highly suggest you read it. One of […]

    Reply

  4. Thanks for replying to this nonsense. The original article was so insulting that it has actually made me question some of my friendships with the people who posted this on FB. The logic used is so faulty that if he were writing on any other subject, he’d be laughed out of the conversation, but bc he’s able to play on this hot button, emotion fueled topic, he’s gone viral. I just want to tell him that it must be nice to be so far intellectually advanced over us idiot mommies who follow Jenny McCarthy like she’s the second coming. Intelligent, educated, facts driven mamas who have spent hundreds of hours on the CDC website and Pubmed can’t exist, and I’m so relieved he pointed that out so I can stop living this lie. (Heavy sarcasm).

    Reply

    • Hi Annie,

      Glad you liked it. You can’t, unfortunately, reply to the original. Ironically, despite the author railing against the “anti-vaccine” people for only wanting an “echo chamber,” he turned off comments on his post after just 4 days! Guess he doesn’t want to hear other opinions, either.

      Reply

  5. What is your source for the statistic that there are 4-5x deaths from vaccines as compared to the deaths by the disease for which they vaccinate? I need to know that source! 🙂

    Reply

    • Hi Liza,

      Check the VAERS database for the number who have died from any given vaccine. Select the year, the vaccine, and the reaction (death) and the numbers will come up. I’ve seen about 60 – 80 per year for the MMR or DTaP. Then, check the CDC for deaths from any given disease, which is where I got the 5 – 20 deaths from pertussis. (2012 was a high of 20.) Hope that helps!

      Reply

      • well it’s higher than that. There are lots of doctors out there who call measles in the vaccinated “nonspecific virus” or some nonsense. And lots of doctors who see vaccine injury and deny it is from vaccines. Seems to me that just about EVERYONE has some injury from vaccines, even if it is slight. I had seizures after a vaccine, of course not documented, and I have dealt with the brain damage it caused. Stuff like that isn’t even in the statistics. It is really tough to go by these statistics. But yes the VAERS is all we seem to have. 🙁

        Reply

  6. I just had to comment on a point you’re making.

    I find it very ironic that you detest the way pro-vaccine people use fear to illicit an emotional response and sway their audience’s opinion… when you are doing the same thing here.

    You made a critical mistake in one part of this article that many anti-vaccine people make – you use real data, but don’t interpret it correctly. Data is skewed from its original meaning toward a bias, and it is done incorrectly. Let me show you what I mean.

    You say, “Nobody has died of measles in more than a decade, despite thousands of cases.”
    This is NOT true, AT ALL. Where did you get this information? Put plainly on the WHO website, “In 2012, there were 122,000 measles deaths globally – about 330 deaths every day or 14 deaths every hour.” In America, even if the number of deaths was zero (which it isn’t), the reason more people aren’t dying from measles is because of vaccination.
    You used incorrect information here, AND you used it wrong.

    Then, you said, “Very, very few have died of pertussis (5 – 20 per year).”
    Again, plain wrong. So very wrong. From the CDC website (found with a simple Google search): “Worldwide, it is estimated that there are 16 million pertussis cases and about 195,000 pertussis deaths in children per year.” Wow… that’s pretty far from the 5-20 you state. Are you looking only in America? Again, I don’t understand where you can find this information. People NOT being vaccinated against this are dying. In places around the world where people are not routinely vaccinated for pertussis, they are dying more often. In America, where this vaccine is routine, there are fewer deaths. Yet you make it sound like pertussis is harmless. In fact, from that same CDC website: “Despite generally high coverage with childhood pertussis vaccines, pertussis is one of the leading causes of vaccine-preventable deaths worldwide.”

    And then you said this: “In contrast, much greater numbers are dying or being permanently injured by vaccines.”
    This is the most ridiculous of all the things you’ve said yet, and the most irresponsible “fact” to be putting out for people to read and share. People will read that and fear for their children due to vaccines, because you have tried to paint a picture that vaccines are more dangerous than the diseases they prevent. And again, you’re very wrong. You may have found some data, but you did not interpret it the right way, or compare it against other data. Basically, let’s say 1 million people got the pertussis vaccination last year, and 80 died. Then let’s say 1000 people got pertussis, and 20 died. That means that while 2% of people died from pertussis that year, only 0.008% of people vaccinated died from THAT vaccination. Do you not see the HUGE difference there? If 1 million people got pertussis, there would be far more deaths (see the data I provided above).

    You are comparing apples and oranges here, and you are perpetuating the exact stereotype that the article you mention is against. You’re taking numbers and what they actually mean, and skewing it in an illogical way to suit your purpose.

    I hope I didn’t come across as too inflammatory, because really, I was shocked to read that bit in your article and I really do intend to just inform you of your seemingly honest mistake. I don’t want others to make the same mistake you have and believe facts without context. If you choose to vaccinate or not is (somewhat) your business, but please learn to do a more thorough investigation in the future.

    Reply

    • Natalie,

      I’ll give you the third point — by sheer numbers, more people (now) are dying from vaccines, but by percentage of people who either were vaccinated or caught the wild illness, a greater percentage of those who are ill will die. Of course, if we look at permanent disability and we believe reports from parents who say their children were vaccine-injured (we don’t, largely) then permanent disability would be greater from vaccines. So, it’s still a toss-up what you want to risk. The absolute risk of death from either vaccines or the disease is quite low.

      As for the other numbers, on measles and pertussis deaths, yes, of course I used U.S. data. To include worldwide data would be, to use your words, “comparing apples to oranges.” There are many, many things that differ between the U.S. and a third world country besides vaccination status. You only have to read the WHO’s papers to know that malnutrition, severe vitamin A deficiency, lack of clean water, lack of access to medical care, etc. has a large impact on the outcome in third world countries. These are not issues in the U.S. How could I possibly use worldwide numbers and not be unnecessarily scaring people? Do you understand that?

      Worldwide data is simply useless. Period.

      In 2000, measles was declared “eliminated” from the U.S. This, despite 86 cases. No deaths reported. http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5106a2.htm
      2001 – 2004, 251 cases were reported. No deaths. http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5433a1.htm
      2005 — 66 cases, no deaths. http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5550a2.htm
      2006 — 52 cases, no deaths. http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5553a1.htm
      2007 — 63 cases, no deaths.
      2008 — 131 cases, no deaths. http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5733a1.htm
      2009 — Can’t find data, assume few cases and no deaths.
      2010 — Can’t find data
      2011 — 222 cases, no deaths. http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/pdf/wk/mm6115.pdf
      2012 — 30 – 40 cases, no deaths.
      2013 — 159 cases, no deaths. http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6236a2.htm
      2014 — 288 cases, no deaths (through May 23). http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6322a4.htm?s_cid=mm6322a4_w

      There were also no reports of encephalitis or any permanent disability either.

      I think that you, as well, could learn to investigate more thoroughly and make sure you’re comparing things fairly.

      Reply

      • You do realize how small this world actually is, right? And that diseases can be spread globally at an incredible rate, right? Worldwide data is not useless, and it is NOT to be discredited by anyone.
        There is research on BOTH sides, but to say that most parents are uneducated and just follow blog posts willy nilly is ridiculous.
        Most people do their research either for vaccines or against, and they find out that science and doctors and whatnot are on “their” side. It’s a parents OWN choice. Stop pushing yours.

        Reply

        • Shara,

          It’s not about how big or small the world is, when we are talking about worldwide data. It’s about how differently people in developed countries *handle* illness. We have access to medical care, plus we’re not malnourished and we don’t drink contaminated water. We’re just not at risk of complications like people in the third world are. That’s why worldwide data is useless — people use it to say that U.S. citizens will die at the same rate as third world citizens, and that’s just not true.

          Reply

  7. But you do realize the reason there are fewer child deaths from the actual diseases is because of vaccines being given for those actual diseases? Your statistical comparison actually is a positive indicator for the effectiveness of vaccines.

    Reply

    • No…the death rate had dropped sharply before vaccines were even given, and even with sometimes hundreds of cases per year, there are no deaths for some diseases. That’s not attributable to vaccines.

      Reply

    • Unfortunately, this comment makes no sense. If you look at History for 10 years PRIOR to Vaccinations, diseases were already declining at a rapid rate due to better sanitation and living conditions.

      If you do not believe that “correlation equals causation” you best not go around posting comments like this suggesting the correlation of our introduction of Vaccines is the cause for eradicating diseases, cause that is just foolish.

      Reply

  8. What about my infant’s right to NOT have your unvaccinated child spreading Pertusssis, Rubella etc. My infant didn’t have a choice about getting vaccinated because he was too young.

    YOU take away MY right to protect my child with your scant “research” and fables. The recent measles outbreaks can be completely attributed to people like you. What qualifications do you have to write a book about health? Are you a doctor?

    I know this will NEVER actually show up on your website, but I wanted you to know that REAL parents actually DO due diligence with their research. They understand that they owe it to their child and to those who cannot receive a vaccine because they are too young or have compromised immune systems.

    By the way, I have Lupus. I just had chicken pox for the second time in my life. The vaccines I had may or may not be working any more. Your child, spreading disease, could very well be the person who sends me into a Lupus nosedive and ends my life.

    Thanks for your ridiculous opinions (they are, after all, only opinions. You have NO fact upon with to base your theory.)

    Reply

    • Well, thanks for your opinion. I disagree.

      Your infant has the right to stay home if he’s too young to fight off diseases. Or, you can wear him, keep him a seat with a blanket over him, not let strangers touch him, etc. Your infant does NOT have the right to expect others to make serious medical decisions for his benefit. Plus, you do realize that my unvaccinated children are not actually disease carriers? They do not walk around daily with pertussis and rubella in their systems, just waiting to spread them to others? Because it kind of seems like you think they do, and that’s just crazy.

      I haven’t taken away your infant’s right at all, or your right to protect him. Again, you can breastfeed, you can keep him home, you can not let others touch him. Those are your rights. Forcing vaccination on others is NOT your right.

      There is quite a bit of research here (not in this post, in others) to support the idea that vaccination is not right for everyone. I’m sure you will not read it…and will then tell me it doesn’t exist. I get that a LOT from people who want to force vaccines on others.

      I’m sorry you have an autoimmune disease. Did you know those are sometimes caused by vaccines?

      Unvaccinated children are NOT disease carriers. They are not. Anyone can get sick and spread something, but most people don’t. You are at risk from people who have strep throat or bronchitis but I bet you don’t care because we don’t vaccinate for those. If you have a serious health concern, it is up to you to protect yourself — because people WILL go out in public when they are sick (even if it’s just a cold, that can be harmful to you), and people who are vaccinated CAN carry pertussis or other infections if they run across them even if they aren’t symptomatic. All you can do is protect yourself. You cannot expect everyone around you to cater to your needs. I’m sorry, but you just can’t.

      I’m over the “vaccinate to protect ME” nonsense. Truly. Vaccines come with potentially serious risks and I make medical decisions for my children based on their needs. Not yours.

      Reply

    • What about my infants/toddlers/preschoolers/teenagers rights to not have neurotoxins injected into their bloodstream? Is your infant’s rights more important than mine?
      I’ve been vaccinated with the MMR 3 times as an adult and guess what, I show ZERO immunity to it. So this means the vaccine doesn’t work for me, it did give me a rare neurological disease.
      So does everyone just assume vaccines have worked for them, yes. But they don’t work for everyone and they even injure many. I have a right to weigh my risks and decide what is best for my kids, especially having been vaccine injured as an adult myself.
      I’m sorry to hear you have Lupus but I can guarantee you my kids wouldn’t be the cause for your Lupus nosedive because I keep my kids home when they are ill. Especially with such a disease as rubella or whooping cough.

      Reply

  9. Shaming is the *only* way to get the point across to people like you that ignore evidence, science, reality, fact, and reason at every turn,

    Reply

    • I guarantee that shaming me will NOT ever make me want to agree with you, nor will it “get the point across.” At all. I mean, are you serious? Do you really think if you sit here and spew insults at me and tell me how stupid I am that I’ll suddenly go “Oh! You’re right! I see it now! I will definitely do what you say!” No.freaking.way.

      Grow up, get a clue, and talk to people respectfully, or keep your mouth shut.

      Reply

      • Oh, I quite understand that your willful ignorance is intractible in its pernicious malignance, but perhaps someone else will see you for the fool you are.

        I’ll begin with dismissing the amusing notion of someone your age telling me to “grow up”. I am considerably your elder, the children in my family these days that are similarly aged to your unfortunate offspring I prefix with “grand-“. I’m of an age where diseases like whooping-cough and measles were all but extinct – the playing field created by my generation and the generation before mine that allows the puerile and selfish of your generation think that your children and those aroudn them are safe and free to give advice like “Your infant has the right to stay home” to people who may not have that luxury and idiocy like “keep him a seat with a blanket over him” to protect, for example, an airborne virus like measles that is small enough to linger in the air even after the infected idividual has left the room and will pass through that blanket as readily as the air that carries it.

        But you are “over the ‘vaccinate to protect ME’ nonsense” and only your selfishness matters. You accomplishment of procreation, shared by every sexually reproductive animal from aardvarks to zebras, entitles you to spew whatever half-baked idea you have for little Bekah, Daniel, Jacob, and Nathan regardless of the real harm you are doing to everyone else, and, sadly, to them.

        As I write this I still suffer from complications from catching whooping cough eight months ago. And be clear, I made no decision not to get a booster for pertussis any more than anyone “decides” not to get a smallpox vaccine or worries about leprosy or the Black Plague any more because there should be no vector for the disease. I’m fortunate live in one of the many dozens of countries with readily available and reliable socialised medical services, yet even still, the pertussis vaccine boosters for adults are only given to pregnant women and healthcare workers because there should be no vector if pregnant mothers/infants and 10-year-olds are getting their shots. And that vector wasn’t there twenty years ago when it last crossed my mind. It simply wasn’t necessary to even think these about thees diseases until ‘parents trying to do the best for their kids’ based on faulty and fraudulent nonsense, celebrity endorsement and the self-propagating ignorance that happens every time someone just like you pops-up to spread falsehoods and the I ‘just want the best for *my* children’ mantra regardless of the human and societal cost spread this infection of ignorance. I was uniformly met with incredulity when telling people that I had come down with whooping cough. “Do people even still get that?” one older person from my parents’ generation asked me. Well, yes, apparently they do, thanks to ill-formed and unjustified opinions bantered around by people just like you.

        Before the problems created by Wakefield’s (long since resoundingly discredited as fraud) claims scaring people out of getting not only the MMR vaccine but other vaccines, like Tdap, for no good reason other than unadulterated ignorance founded in the celebrity promotion of uncorroborated un-science and fraud, I would like to say, with all the emotional resonance of someone who spent three months coughing myself into unconsciousness culminating in seizures from an as-yet not entirely diagnosed complication for coming in contact with a disease vector that would not have otherwise existed, shame on you. Shame on you amplified with all the explitives I’ve accumulated in my long life. And shame on anyone who even begins to take you any more seriously than a Mediaeval witch with a bowl of worm soup and a jar of leeches.

        All the disdain heaped on you and your ilk is deserved. You need to be ashamed and embarrassed out of spreading your ignorance because you have already exhibited an inability to separate fact from fiction. You are *not* entitled to you opinion, because it does real harm to other people on a scale much, much larger than threat you are guarding against. Allowing diseases that used to permanently harm and kill people with much greater statistical frequency than any side-effect from any approved vaccine to return is NOT a good trade. So, once again, and with all the feeling and sincerity I can muster, shame on you, and may the stench of your shame warn away others.

        Reply

        • Oh goodness…big words! They make you sound SO smart! And I, of course, am uneducated (clearly), so I don’t understand them. Won’t you please hang around and try some more to sound very smart? I might eventually conclude that you know more than I do, and that I ought to listen to your respectful, well-reasoned argument.

          I do hope you picked up on my extreme sarcasm. I don’t care a bit about what you’ve said here. I really, honestly don’t.

          I won’t vaccinate my children because you misunderstand the available science and instead rely on personal anecdotes from your life time. I won’t allow your ridiculous insults (a Medieval witch, really?) to even enter my thought process. Because, you see, I examine the new studies that are coming out all the time, and the opinions of several doctors. I examine the quality of the studies. I look at information beyond what is discussed in the media (which is only “vaccines are safe and effective”) to come to actual, scientific conclusions about vaccines. But what would you know about that? All you’ve done is prattle on about your personal experiences, memories, and media talking points.

          I’m done with people like you, who refuse to look into the actual science, and then call people like me stupid, because we do. The information is available out there whenever you want to look at it.

          In the mean time, no, I will never choose to vaccinate because people like you try to bully and condescend to me. I return your shame to you, for wasting your time bullying innocent parents over the internet instead of worrying about what you can control. Because what you CAN’T control is other peoples’ medical decisions. It’s simply none of your business.

          Reply

          • Ladies and gentlemen of the word, take heed and do not take advice from someone who cares nothing of the harm she does to other people. Stay away from old wives tales and remember which road is paved with good intentions like hers.

            Leave this place and learn to separate fact from pseudoscience. Learn to use and how to tell when studies are done properly, repeatably, and critically. Maybe read some Karl Popper on the vital role of falsifiability in science (and, tangentially, the “paradox of tolerance” to understand where I might be coming from). Learn the difference between someone who is buttressing the lie they are emotionally clinging to beyond all reason, and testable, corroborated, empirical observation of fact.

          • “Learn the difference between someone who is buttressing the lie they are emotionally clinging to beyond all reason, and testable, corroborated, empirical observation of fact.”

            Speaking of yourself? Obviously unintentional, but so very true.

        • How much do you want to bet that you contracted the bacteria that causes whooping cough from your recently vaccinated grandchildren? It’s much more likely than you getting it from some random unvaccinated person that just HAPPENS to be carrying pertussis bacteria in their airway. Maybe the reason you got it to begin with is because the vaccines you recieved in your younger years have worn off, a relatively new discovery considering for 70 years everyone believed they meant lifetime immunity. Which also means for the past 40 years half of the population has been living with no vaccine induced immunity (assuming it even worked most the time) and somehow we all survived.
          With the knowledge that vaccines last just a few years we’ve been administering boosters. A lot of them. By the time you’re old, grumpy ass is due for a booster your immune system is not so great, maybe you can’t get one. But your grandchildren are routinely vaccinated. On schedule. Regularly putting you at risk to contract the bacteria. The acellular pertussis vaccine has shown to be carried in the airways for up to 6 weeks. Who’s the disease vector now, grandpa?
          Take it up with the FDA.

          http://www.fda.gov/newsevents/newsroom/pressannouncements/ucm376937.htm

          Smells like sweet, sweet irony ♡

          Reply

        • No one is listening to you Michael… no one. The way you come across in your writing just turns people off, they shut down – you sound arrogant, ignorant, insulting, negative, and constantly point blame. Quality, independent, scientific studies are what convince me, got any of those?

          Reply

    • Michael, I used to vaccinate my children because I just believed the masses like you. Then I started to actually research the evidence, science, reality, and facts, and that’s what convinced me to stop vaccinating. I found out the TRUTH about them.

      Reply

      • I expect very much that you “researched” only that which corroborated the conclusion you wanted to make and ignored anything else, especially if it involved big words and statistics.

        Reply

        • Well, no. When I began my research I did not have a “conclusion I wanted to make”, I was just searching for information and truth whichever form that might take. I am not afraid of big words and statistics, but I do know how to use them appropriately, whereas you just sound like you are trying too hard. Honestly, it makes you sound less intelligent and less able to converse in a beneficial way.

          Maybe if you put your energy into real researching instead of shaming and bullying you might be able to understand where I am coming from. Personal experience is only one side of the issue. It doesn’t sound like you actually know the facts about the diseases or the vaccines.

          You have assumed that I am an idiot and don’t know how to do real research. Why? Because my conclusion is different than yours? That just makes you ignorant. I am not an idiot. I research REAL information. I don’t get my information from google searches or celebrities or random opinion posts. Why would I do that? Despite what you clearly believe I do want real information, I do want actual truth. I am smart enough not to base important decisions on random opinions I stumble across, including yours.

          I am a little surprised that you are old enough to have grand children. I would have thought that as people get older they learn how to have mature conversations, and learn that respecting others is a much better way to accomplish something. At least that is something I have learned. But then again, I guess it just proves that people are different.

          Reply

  10. Thank you so much for just pointing out how stupid that article was. Pro or anti vaccine, anybody should be able to read that article and realise the arguments make no sense.

    Also, browsing the comments here, and people blaming the anti-vacs for outbreaks is making me cringe. I’ll have everybody crying that know I was fully vaccinated as a child and suffered pertussis three times between the ages of eight and sixteen. Vaccines do not always work, and who knows how many of my fellow classmates I spread my pertussis to!

    Reply

    • You unusual susceptibility is a perfect example why the “personal choices” of the magically-minded and selfish do real harm. Actually catching, enduring and surviving a pertussis infection should have conferred the same decade or so of immunity as the vaccine. The fact that it didn’t points to a particular and unusual susceptibility in your case. If, however, everyone around you had been vaccinated and unable to carry the bacteria and provide the vector that infected you repeatedly you might have enjoyed your teens without the illness you suffered. If the trend that was present 20-30 years ago toward the complete eradication of the disease had continued uninterrupted by Wakefield’s hoax and the anti-vaccine movement that followed it, you would not have had to worry about pertussis any more than smallpox, the first disease for which there was a vaccine, which was absolutely exterminated as a consequence.

      Reply

      • It’s time for you to go away. You clearly don’t understand the information I’m sharing, nor the science, nor the very important topic of individual rights. You’re wasting your time here, bullying and arguing with people without any facts to present, only a whole lot of emotional rhetoric.

        I’ll deleting anything further that you post.

        Reply

      • Michael, do you know what a tither is and have you had one performed on yourself and all that are close to you? I have had a tither performed on myself after being diagnosed with a neurological disease that was caused by vaccines. Guess what, I am not immune to anything i’ve been vaccinated for. Oh so yes vaccines are full proof and safe is something I laugh at.
        How many adults actually get all the boosters needed because vaccines don’t last a lifetime? I’m going to say very little because I’ve never heard another adult say they went to my well check and got my boosters.
        So I’ll take the risk of my kids getting a disease(that they will most likely survive with proper care) over causing harm to them that they have to live with daily like I do.

        Reply

  11. I’m not going to comment on the vaccine thing, since I am pro-vaccination. However, the car seat reference and Natalie’s comments about data sources and interpretation got me thinking about the Freakonomics study (and ensuing brouhaha) demonstrating that, in fact, most of the time car seats are less safe than seatbelts. It’s interesting reading: http://freakonomics.com/tag/car-seats/

    Reply

  12. Love your reply. I have not seen the article mentioned yet, but I am sure it will make its way onto my newsfeed eventually. We don’t even vaccinate our pets and I wish I had never been vaccinated either- can you detox from the metals and chemicals from the vaccines received in childhood to lessen continuous damage?

    Reply

  13. Michael grow up! Sorry couldn’t resist. Nobody is going to change my mind with backwards thinking, its called learning

    Reply

  14. Kate, why are there trollers in your blog page? You should not entertain idiots like them. They are in your blog post commenting and persuading non sense. Only like minded individuals who knows how to respect and not belittle should be in this page. If they are SO confident in their beliefs then anything that contradicts their beleifs should not rock their confidence. And for those who think that unvaccinated babies carry some unknown organisms that will make them sick…hahahah! Ignorance!

    Reply

  15. You say car crashes are the #1 cause of death for children under 5 but then claims car seats have no risk at all. If most all children are in car seats, then how are they dying in car accidents? Could it be because they are not in the seats correctly? Then, there is a risk associated with car seats. Also, car seat or not, there is a risk every time you ride in a car. Therefore, there is risk involved with car seat usage.

    There is not a risk every single time you vaccinate. For 99.999984% of Americans, there is no vaccine injury risk whatsoever. If you are part of the 0.000016%, then there is a risk. So, there is a 0.000016% risk of vaccine injury. I get this statistic by comparing the number of vaccines given in USA in the last 30 years to the number of vaccine injury claims compensated.

    The risk of vaccine injury is extremely low. Riding in a car is far more dangerous.

    Reply

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I’m Kate, mama to 5 and wife to Ben.  I love meeting new people and hearing their stories.  I’m also a big fan of “fancy” drinks (anything but plain water counts as ‘fancy’ in my world!) and I can’t stop myself from DIY-ing everything.  I sure hope you’ll stick around so I can get to know you better!

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